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#28993: "Translate "kontra játék" as "kontra the game" and "duplajáték" as "double game""

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hungariantarokk #127299981

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Suxestión: na miña opinión, esta idea pode mellorar moito a implementación do xogo

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29. Nov 2020 07:21 • pagat2020 • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Any English speaking player who has played Hungarian Tarokk live and knows the meaning of 'trull' and 'valat' also knows that you say 'kontra' to the game or an announcement to double its value. 'Double game' is the most obvious direct translation of 'duplajáték', the undertaking to take at least 71 points - why call it 'high game', which no one has heard of?
Every English speaking player I know who has tried this app has been confused by the fact that uniquely in BGA kontra is called double and double is called high.
Also, any beginners who first learn the game at BGA will be confused if they later play live and hear someone announce 'double game' with its usual meaning of 'duplajáték' (71+ points).

1. Dec 2020 08:55 • LaszloK • Os desenvolvedores cren que é unha boa idea e teñen a intención de traballar nela:

This was a tough decision. Basically the pros and cons of the two options are:
- kontra + double game: Closer to the Hungarian terminology (of German origin)
- double + high game: Closer to Bridge terminology, easier to understand right away

I went with the latter when teaching the game in English, and I found it far more beginner-friendly - "kontra" is just another word players would need to learn along with its meaning (unless they are well versed in other card games using German terms, which few people are), whereas "double", even if they aren't familiar with Bridge, is instantly clear and easy to remember. It just reduces the brain overload.

In turn, "duplajáték" is confusing (even in Hungarian!) as it's not "taking twice as many points as the opponent" but "taking half the points plus more than half of the remaining points" (effectively: more than 3/4 of the total points), so "high game" is actually more descriptive, and again reduces the brain overload.

Yes, the fact that the terms don't correspond to each other word for word has the potential for some initial confusion in real-life games, but ultimately even if that happens it's probably easy to sort out.

I won't be closing this report yet so as to allow an opportunity for others to comment, but for now I consider the benefits of the current terminology to significantly outweigh the drawbacks.

1. Dec 2020 08:56 • LaszloK • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Whoops, seems like "acknowledged" doesn't exactly mean what I thought it did. :)

1. Dec 2020 11:58 • pagat2020 • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Thank you for considering my request.
One drawback is the chaos that may follow when people who have learned Tarokk in English on Board Game Arena (BGA) start playing live games with people who have never heard of BGA.
Player A calls the XX and hears player B say 'double the game'. What does it mean? If A has never played at BGA, probably he will think B has the XX and is announcing duplajáték. Perhaps A will then announce an Ultimo, a disaster if B was really an enemy trying to say kontra in BGA-language.
Or if player B calls the XX and hears player A say 'double game' he may think that A is an opponent saying kontra and play against him, causing the duplajáték to fail. Another disaster.
Or if I call the XX and hear another player say 'double (the) game', am I going to have to rely on the small word 'the' to deduce whether the other player is speaking in ordinary language or BGA-language? I don't think I can risk it, so I will have to ask what the announcement means - is it a duplajáték or a kontra?
This will be quite annoying, so I hope you will reconsider your position.

1. Dec 2020 12:39 • Jimblefredberry • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

LaszloK, you asked for others to comment on this here, so I'm popping in :) I would say I agree with pagat2020 in that saying "kontra" and "double game" makes more sense because to learn the game, you have to read the rules elsewhere first anyway, and get used to those terms. So if you then come to BGA and find different terms, that is really annoying because you then have to learn what they mean!

Also, when English speakers are playing with Hungarian players it is then difficult to discuss the contracts with each other, since Hungarians will translate "duplajáték" as "Double game" but English players will see "High game".

2. Dec 2020 00:44 • Chickenduck • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

If it were me, even as an English speaker I'd probably keep to the original Hungarian/German game language where possible. For example, in Skat on BGA they use all the terms like "Kontra", "Schneider" (which is basically the same as Duplajáték) and "Schwarz" (win all tricks) direct from German, even in the English UI. As long as there's an explanation for beginners in the section below, it should be ok.

Just my 2c :)

2. Dec 2020 07:53 • LaszloK • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Hmmm, ok, and how do you translate higher level kontras and the (extremely uncommon, but possible) "official kontra"? See here for all relevant strings:
boardgamearena.com/translation?module_id=1189&source_locale=en_US&dest_locale=hu_HU&find=kontra

The thing with using the word "double" is that it's a common English word, so it lends itself seamlessly to various usages, including as a verb. Whereas with "kontra" you end up with... "the game is officially kontra'd"? "Before kontra-ing ultimo?" Or how do you even formulate those things?

2. Dec 2020 08:00 • LaszloK • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

BTW I'm not too concerned by the (admittedly very real) potential for _initial_ confusion: if you don't know the other players well enough, then chances are you'll have more serious problems to sort out, including some involving rules, than what the name of everything is! However Jimblefredberry's point about discussion around a table being a problem when there's a mix of Hungarians and English speakers does concern me, because we're talking about _ongoing_ confusion there.

2. Dec 2020 09:44 • Jimblefredberry • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

I agree that using "kontra" as a verb is weird... I usually say "kontra'd" and you can see that used a lot on this page: www.pagat.com/tarot/xx-hivas.html

I would also just use the original terms for the higher kontras, i.e. rekontra, szubkontra, hirskontra...

As for the "Hivatalból kontra", I had never heard of this until now! (And don't understand it from a first look...) So can't comment...

2. Dec 2020 14:14 • pagat2020 • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Hivatalból kontra is the 'official kontra' that must be given by a player who has discarded the called tarokk, causing the bidder unexpectedly to play alone. 'Official kontra' is fine as a translation - and for example "The game is officially kontra'd by ${player_name}" for "${player_name} hivatalból kontrát jelent."

Kontra'd, kontra-ing, etc. are OK in my opinion, or it is often possible to work around them by reformulating the sentence, for example "${player_name} gives an official kontra to the game", "before saying kontra to an ultimo", etc.

If you would like suggestions for translations of particular phrases I would be happy to help.

7. Dec 2020 05:35 • Nisterius • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

While verbs ending in a vowel other than y are rare in English, they're not unknown, and are usually formed with -ed and -ing. (echo, salsa, subpoena) And Contra is already an English verb (though a rare one.) I'd use "Kontra, Kontras, Kontraed, Kontraing" or "Contra, Contras, Contraed, Contraing."

Re- and Sub- aren't odd as prefixes; "hirs" is pretty strange - but as I understand it, it's a joke in German (Reh = Roe deer; Hirsch = Hart deer). Does it mean anything in Hungarian? I'm inclined to just leave it be:
C/Kontra, Recontra, Subcontra, Hirschkontra (or, why not, make that one "Surcontra"?: Super/Hyper are Latin/Greek equivalents, and Super often comes into English words as "sur-" : those are sort of more "naturalized" without straying _as far_ from the Hungarian terms.

9. Dec 2020 16:53 • pagat2020 • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Please don't make up new words. Subkontra and subcontra are fine as English spellings of szubkontra. Changing it to surcontra just adds a layer of obscurity for no gain. One the other hand if we are changing sz to s in subkontra I suppose there is an argument for also changing s to sh in hirshkontra, to help English speakers get closer to the right pronunciation.

10. Dec 2020 09:26 • LaszloK • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

"Hirskontra" is just Hungarian orthography for the German deer joke and has no Hungarian meaning.

Taking a step back, the underlying issue here that's giving me pause is the following.

It is true that you won't find any websites (other than perhaps some of my own edits / translations) that use the Bridge terminology. But in fact anyone writing up an English description of this game had every reason to believe that it will only ever be played in a Hungarian context, so it would have been a waste of time to even try to think of terminology that might work better in English.

In turn I came up with this a little over ten years ago when teaching the game to an entirely English-speaking group, some of whom had a Bridge background, and I found that it does work better... and with playing online on BGA, and lockdowns around the world, I think there is a chance (if ever so slim) that the game takes off, and I would very much like to maximize that chance, which I think the current terminology does help with.

Imagining that in 20 years, there's a worldwide Tarokk community of tens of thousands of people, most of whom use English, these differences would no longer be a problem at all, because everyone in Hungary would be aware, and nobody else would need to care, and it would just be more logical and beginner-friendly in English.

Maybe I'll ask some people from my English-speaking Tarokk group for their opinions - or just wait for a while to see just how many people are put off by this.

10. Dec 2020 09:28 • LaszloK • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

BTW this s/sh thing is interesting sometimes, I went back and forth on "skiz" (which is "skíz" in Hungarian, pronounced more or less as "shkeez") but as it came from the German "Sküs" (which itself comes from French "excuse") it seemed best to stick to the "s" sound. This decision was also influenced by the same English-speaking Tarokk group I mentioned above, who did try to say "shkiz" for a while but found it really awkward and ultimately asked that we call it "skiz" instead.

15. Dec 2020 03:25 • Chickenduck • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Regarding discussion of "contra" as a verb, I'd actually phrase it as "to call contra". "Player1 has called contra", "Player2 has called Re-contra etc".

16. Dec 2020 00:29 • pagat2020 • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

It's true that the formal Gerrman word is Sküs but colloquially it is often called the Gstieß or sometimes Stieß, both of which have the 'sh' sound. I wonder why it is not szkíz in Hungarian. Maybe you never begin words with szk?

16. Dec 2020 10:05 • Lorant • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

As one of the most authentic and recognized "guru" of Hungarian Tarokk my opinion is that the whole Tarokk application here in BGA is simply great. (Specially after comparing to other ones such as Rikiki for e.g.) The wondrous effort and energy it was needed should be well appreciated. That includes the English translation that is excellent specially by somebody who does not speak it as a first language.
Anyways.
I have read the arguments above about kontra vs. double and I understand it can be confusing. However I doubt it makes somebody make mistakes having spent not more than one minute on understanding the circumstances and features here. I also have to agree with all the arguments here such as (1) Bridge terminology (2) "duplajáték" (currently high game) does not really mean double but only one and a half (3) the word kontra is very German-Hungarian and sounds weird while forcing to fit it in English sentences specially as a verb that is necessary.
As LaszloK and I have published quite a lot of English material about Hungarian Tarokk to make it better known worldwide so far it would cause a lot of problems if is changed its terminology because of some true but still disputable arguments.

18. Dec 2020 20:00 • Lorant • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Also please consider that with László's terminology (that uses "common" and familiar English expressions such as "trump", "hold", "double", "kitty" instead of "tarokk", "tartom", "kontra", "talon", etc.) the Hungarian Tarokk could become a little more easily a "normal" enjoyable card game instead of an interesting curiosity full of weird expressions from somewhere in the East that is played only by card game geeks :)

13. Jan 2021 18:16 • BobKov • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

I had no issues teaching the game to English people, using double game and the kontra expressions. There never was any confusion. I think people who become interested in Hungarian Tarokk will like it for the game itself, and not the expressions. Maybe it adds a slight exotic flair, but that's it.

I suspect László, that your Bridge player friend was the main reason why you went with double/redouble instead. None of the guys I showed the game were serious card players, so they didn't have an issue with kontra, kontrad rekontrad etc.

As for the discussion if duplajáték is illogical or not, I always thought it's more to do with the bonus itself, getting double the base point when it's silent. :) If you think about it Schneider is Szabó, how is that more logical? Only cardgame historians might be interested in the origin of these expressions.

Having said all this, I understand these namings were a conscious decision, and an attempt to future proof and normalize the game, while perhaps spreading it outside of Hungary. Also that this is László's app, and he's using the terms he used to teach with. But for a second, just imagine the Germans changing Schneider, Schwarz and kontra to English terms. Unlikely. ;)

I, personally prefer to use terms based on Hungarian expressions, with only translating things, eg. 4 kings, that won't cause any confusion.

13. Jan 2021 18:26 • BobKov • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

To Lóránt's point. Last time I talked to English natives about the "kitty" in French tarot, I got a big laugh/smile as a reaction.

Whoever knows what a kitty is in card terms, won't have a trouble learning the game. Tarokk will always be a more challenging card game. It will probably never supersede rummy or spades in general appeal. Just look at what card games are in the top 10 of interest/popularity on pagat.com.

The only tough crowd might be Bridge players, but are they really that interested in anything but Bridge? :)

26. Jan 2021 18:28 • Woodruff • Esta suxestión aínda non foi analizada polos desenvolvedores:

Hi,
For high game, I would personnaly propose this translation: "three-quarters".
This is neither of the two alternatives but I think that king of wording better explicits what that announcement implies.
But if you don't like it, I understand that too :)

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#28993: "Translate "kontra játék" as "kontra the game" and "duplajáték" as "double game""

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